2/26/07

Arlington Condos: Joule Converts to Apts. Next up: Zoso & Phoenix?

Joule condos, formerly owned by Ed Peete (Arlington Virginia) recently announced a transformation from condos ownership to apartment rentals. Canceling hundreds of contracts in the process.

Update April 3rd 2007. Email me, I have a nearly official word that Zoso is going rentals!!

A dozen local condo developments have taken this route and I predict that Zoso condos (also from Ed Peete) in Arlington will be next.



How can I make this prediction? Lets look at the obvious facts:

  1. Ed Peete just did it with the Joule condos in Arlington.
  2. Only 60% have been sold at Zoso. That is nothing. The bank will require certain milestones be met and I bet that most of those sales were in the first 6 months, with maybe a sale or two every month since.
  3. Pricing. The units were priced at Clarendon 1021 values (across the street) when flippers were making an $80k profit. Now 1021 sellers are lucky if they break even. (see NY Times Article)
  4. Withdrawn MLS listings. They withdrew their listings on the MLS on Dec 26th 2006. What company trying to feverishly sell their condos would withdraw from the MLS?
Why does this matter to buyers?
One savvy business man recently told me "I spoke to the builder... they are claiming to be on target for their delivery dates. They are definitely keeping it as condos."
He would rather know the truth so that he can get on with finding his perfect condo. Instead he gets strung along for over a year and then is left with nothing.

How can the contract allow for them to tear it up?
Most new constructions contracts have a clause that outlines the penalties for purchasers that back out of deals. However there is a clause that allows the seller to back out of the deal with no penalty (maybe you will get some interest on your deposit). This lack of mutuality (read court case on Mutuality) is being contested by some lawyers (email me if you need a lawyer), and is being used by buyers to get out of new construction contracts.


How can a buyer get the facts and expose their Achilles heal?
First of all if you haven't bought a new condo yet, have your Realtor try to strike the clause that allows the seller to get out with no penalty. Or specify some damages. Whether it be $1,000 or $20,000 or your deposit amount.

If you already bought a place and they tell you they are "definitely keeping it as condos", then they shouldn't have any problem writing up a little bitty addendumy-poo to the contract that calls for damages if they lie to you verbally. Watch them shake in their pants and run for the hills.

Why are developers giving up?
A brief history... In the olden days, New Constructions were a great deal. Builders would sell units at 15-25% below market price in order to be able to sell 200-400 units. It is simple supply and demand. If you want to sell 200 of something, you better come in super low to make sure you sell out.
But then the market rocketed and flippers were able to pocket the 20% discount AND realize the 20% jump in the market (during the 1-2 yr development). I know a lady, straight out of college that made $80,000 just 2 weeks after closing.

So the developers saw everyone getting rich and they wanted their
money back! They also saw buyers line up in the thousands (3,000 for Clarendon 1021) and they started selling units at current market prices (no more discounts). Buyers were buying hoping for the same run up, since it was a "sure thing". (See my blog on a flipper that lost $150k)
Sure enough, with Clarendon 1021 the first 10 sellers made a killing, as much as $100k. But then the next 10 made $50k and the next 20 were lucky to break even, with some losing over $30k.

Zoso and Phoenix condos in Clarendon Arlington meanwhile priced their units at the TOP of the market when the flippers made $100k.


You know it is a bubble when you hear about 4 taxi drivers that decided to get rich and pool their money together to buy a new construction. Where are they now, I wonder.

So what happens when you sell "60%" of the building for $100k over the current prices nearby? You have un grande problemo (that means a "big problem" in Spanish). You can't drop prices for the rest of the units, or the current purchasers will want out. But if you don't drop, nothing sells. (Some builders have resorted to illegally fudging the MLS, see blog, which is why you should use a Realtor!)

Why does this matter for the Arlington area?
It helps the existing condos. Simple supply and demand. Remove the supply and people buying will look next door at 1021. Now does this inside scoop mean you should run out and buy at 1021? Yes. Absolutely, and from me, so I can get filthy rich! Nah, but each conversion back to apts. definitely can't hurt. And of those 100 buyers, lets say half are investors, maybe half of the rest (25) might look nearby. 25 active buyers? That helps values.

And for those of you that dislike Realtors, you'll love this... When a condo development decides to convert to apartments a week before closing, guess what the Realtor gets? ZILCH!

So did you get anything out of this?
If so, return the favor by sending this or another blog of mine to a friend (even if they aren't in this state, since information is power) and sign up for this blog via email (see Feedlitz form on right). Thanks!

- Written by Frank Borges LL0SA- Broker/Owner FranklyRealty.com
703-827-4OO6 Please report all typos, I don't like looking stupid.

Videos at YouTube.FranklyRealty.com
Keywords: The Prime, Orange line metro, williamsburg condo, courthouse hill, Ballston, rosslyn, Clarendon, Virginia square, condo conversions, Turnberry Tower Virginia, abdo, Carlyle Place, 1800 wilson, Waterview, The Jamieson , Gatehouse condos, prescott, the grove at arlington shirlington village, Io Piazza, The reserve, Byron , East View/West View , Park at Courthouse, Park Crest, Renaissance 2230, The Palatine , Avera Station, The Exchange at Van Dorn , Monroe at Virginia Square Metro, Hawthorn, Ballston 880 Courthouse Heights , Pearson Square , The Odyssey , Residences at Lyon Hill, Ellipse McWilliams-Ballard , Halstead Towers Westlee, Preston at Potomac Yard, Savoy, Spectrum, Garfield, Bromptons at Cherrydale - Condominiums, Housing bubble? Arlington, Alexandria, mls, homes, Real estate, Virginia, 22203, 22201, 22314, Fairfax Va, DC Realty, Realtor

37 COMMENTS SO FAR. ADD YOUR COMMENTS.:

million said...

i couldn't agree more w/ your selections... the specuvestors that picked up property in those buildings are being done a HUGE favor by the conversion.

Nova Buyer said...

Frank,

Great website! I am writing to obtain the advice that you graciously offered in your posts. I signed a contract for $3XXk for a 1 br condo at the Eclipse in Crystal City in January of 2004. At the time they said delivery would be fall 2006. They've pushed delivery back to late May/June 2007. I'm beginning to have serious doubts on whether I want to complete the deal. What advice can you offer me including, but not limited to, directing me to a lawyer?

Many Thanks,

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Thank Nova,
Email me directly and check out www.GetOutOfContracts.com

Anonymous said...

I put in an offer on a new condo in Arlington that had a clause that gave them the right to sell some condos and keep part of the community as Rentals. Verbally they told me that this would never happen. What should I do?

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

First of all, GET a REALTOR! Even if it isn't me.

Secondly, I would be VERY careful of language like that in a contract, and I would IGNORE their VERBALS (heck you have to sign a page that flat out says that all verbal representations are invalid) . If they won't let you cross it off, maybe put an addendum that allows you to back out of the contract if they go partially to apartments. Or ask for $10k if they do (consult a lawyer first, I'm not a lawyer).

Also talk to your lender (NOT THEIR LENDER) and see what they have to say about "mised use" condos. I bet you will find that they will be MUCH harder to sell in a few years.

mebot said...

Frank,

Love the site and the straight talk. Would love to hear your thoughts on buying in 2008, what do you think will realistically happen in areas like Del Ray, Arlington, Falls Church.

Will prices drop back to 2002-2003 prices?

mebot said...

Mainly looking at townhouses or the smallish 2br cottage style houses in the area.

Anonymous said...

Nova Buyer, I believe Ellipse is a McWilliams-Ballard project. Check your contract to see if it stipulates the developer must complete the project within 24 months.

tchaka owen said...

Frank, I like that some of these condos are converting to apartments. I wonder if a developer is buying them from Peete or if he's holding on. Down here in Miami a number of projects will never even go up. I'm happy about that as that will curb supply and hopefully jumpstart the condo market again.

-Tchaka
tchakaowen.blogspot.com

Anonymous said...

I bought last week at the Westlee, new condos in Falls Church, they are about sold out. Is that a good deal?

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

1) First of all did you use a Realtor? If not, shame on you! They are the ones that would do the proper analysis on how it compares to units already available. Read this: www.tinyurl.com/35fnyp

One thing I CAN say is be EXTREMELY careful buying a new construction where you haven't purchased with the LOWEST PRICE.

Regardless of getting a good deal, if another 3 owners bought for $40k under you, and if they want to get out at break even, you will lose $40k overnight.

Now if you have a long term horizon and investment isn't #1 (which it shouldn't be), then you might be fine.

Just be aware that the risks are higher in my opinion.

When the boom of 3 years ago (new condos and flippers) occurred, I told people then, no matter HOW great of a deal a place might seem to be, ONLY buy if you get the lowest price. If you didn't, then wait for the next development. I probably saved 10 people over $500,000 total from that little piece for advice, now that people are liquidating at their break even, or for a loss.

2) Regarding that area, I don't know. But I bet that the price of the condos has the future development already built into it.

You wrote: " i won't have a problem selling it within my specified time horizon." . How do you know? If you know you can sell it for at least break even, great, but I wouldn't be so sure.

3-4 year hold is risky. In the olden days that was a no brainer, you'd be rich. Now it is more uncertain. A new construction will have MORE inventory on sale then a place that has existed for 10 years. Supply and demand will effect prices when a flood of investors try to sell in a year or when people try to sell after the customary 2-3 years.

Lets say 20% (a made up number) of people move after 2 years. If you have a condo that is 20 years old and 20 people moved out 2 years ago, you might get 20 plus 4 (4 is 20% of the normal 20 per year). if you have 200 people buying at the same time, 20% of 200 is 40 units. More supply drives prices down.

3) As far as rent vs buying, did you include ALL your condos fees in your buying number? Also how much are you putting down? Do you math based on 100% financing (if you put 20% down, that means your $2,000/mo mortgage is really more like $2,400/mo since that 20% could be somewhere else like the stock market.

4) I wouldn't be that worried about eastview/westview. How old is it? The units there are sometimes $20k-30k under the rest of the area. Even if they have problems, if you are starting $20k ahead, you'll have room

Frank

Boo said...

"It helps the existing condos. Simple supply and demand. Remove the supply and people buying will look next door at 1021."

Converting a building from condo to apartment doesn't truly remove supply. Let's face it. Apartments and condos are basically substitutes for one another. Physically, they're the same thing. Each potential condo buyer weighs his options (rent vs. own) and chooses what's best for him. More rental units should put downward pressure on rents, making renting more attractive.

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

I can see your point. But if 100 buyers have their contracts torn up, are you telling me that not one will buy next door? I think anywhere from 5-15 will.

David A. Podgursky, MBA The Mortgage Go To Guy! said...

that's actually becoming very big down here in South Florida.

There are too many condos so they are not selling.

joe said...

Awesome blog. In a year or so I'll be looking for a place and I'll call you first.

million said...

Frank,

I'd like to submit for your "cheesiest slogan" award the following name:

David A. Podgursky, MBA The Mortgage Go To Guy

Thanks!

Anonymous said...

Zoso has already gone rentals. Phoenix is not going to go rental. Glad I could help you out~!

Anonymous said...

Zoso is converting to Apartments, Phoenix isn't.

Anonymous said...

Frank,

Great site...finally honest insight! A close friend of mine actually has a contract at the Phoenix for a 2bed/2bath/den there during the first week of sales. Should he try to renegotiate? I, myself, am looking in the near future and the Palatine has a lot of what I want. Thoughts? Thanks!

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Regarding the posting "Phoenix isn't converting to apartments", you are probably right, but it is still up in the air. The builder just hired a new marketing company, so that is a good sign that they are in it for the long haul, but I won't believe it until it is completed and starts closing.

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Dear Anonymous,
As your friend trying to get a lower price, I can't say. Does he have an agent or did he think that we are worthless and walk in there unrepresented. If so, that was a big no no.

ALl I can say is that the starting prices for Phoenix were priced when Clarendon 1021 was $100,000 overpriced (vs now). So depends what he paid and whether he can get something in the open market for less. Have him contact me if he doesn't have an agent.

As for the Palatine, email me directly. I might put up a blog about it soon.

Anonymous said...

Frank -

I'm particularly interested in progress/changes w/Zoso. Where should I watch for Ed Peete & Co. news (besides here)?

Thanks!

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

You can email me directly (see email on far right of page), you can also set up a google search alert (maybe for blogs too). And the word Zoso is put in, you'll get an email.

Why, did you buy there?

Frank

Anonymous said...

Yes, I do have a contract at Zoso and would not like to be the last to know that it's going to be cancelled. I don't buy the excuses I get for the "mid-winter pause in sales" when I ask. If they already have us under contract, I would prefer straight talk about the chances to B.S.

I know of multiple people interested in units at Zoso and they aren't even making sales appointments for the future, when they do resume sales.

Anonymous said...

Frank - I'm looking to buy a place for my Mom. It's an investment, but a 10-20 year investment. Any suggestions in Arlington? And should I be seriously considering forclosures?

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Sure, can you email me directly please (link on right side of page). As for foreclosures, sure why not, well except that they don't really exist!

They sound like a great idea, but they don't exist in this area and price range (I know of one and it was on the MLS like everything else, and it sat for 100 days). If you have the secrets, let me know!!

Also I'm trying to get the inside scoop on these fake "auctions" that are going on. Where they add a 10% processing fee over the final price, sometimes sending you over the neighbor's list price. Why bother.

Sorry the only short cut is getting an agent that will fight to get you that last $10,000 or $20k off (ask for references).

Anonymous said...

Frank,
Do you know what is going on with station square and park at courthouse. They seem to be pricing lower than the area.

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Yes, Ray talks about Park at Courthouse on our blog over at http://Local.FranklyRealty.com

Contact him for the latest inside scoop for you. There is no extra charge for a Realtor and we have done a few deals there so you will net less with us.

Frank

Anonymous said...

Frank, I have some info for you on IO Piazza. how can i reach you? There are many rumors (and truth) that there is someone looking at buying the building and converting it to apartment rentals. They have over 70 units left to sell in the bldg and closing was originally suppose to be January/Feb and now they are looking at June/July.

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Hey there,
I already wrote a blog on my Local.FranklyRealty.com about IO Piazza being sold off as a building. As for reaching me you can call 703-827-4006 or use the email on the right side of the page.

Kris said...

I purchased a condo at Io Piazza in March 2005. it has not been a pleasant experience dealing with anyone associated with this building.

I heard that the building has been or will be sold by the developer and converted into apartments. Is this true?

How quickly must they refund the deposits?

Thanks
Kris

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Please check out the:
LOCAL.Franklyrealty.com for the answer to that IO Piazza question

Anonymous said...

Kris,
If you signed the contract in March 2005, you can get out of it right now and with all your money back. Email me and I'll explain.
jfjf15@yahoo.com

Jason Park said...

Frank,
Can you tell me about phoenix condo status? It seems they begin scheduling settlement date. Does it mean they won't be covert to rental? Your thought?

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Hey John,
If you heard that, that means they are pretty likely to all become condos. If you bought a place there, just watch out for new lower prices. Also they might not really start a drop in prices until AFTER the places close. I have actually seen this company INCREASE prices while people are conducting closes in order to make it LOOK like you are getting a great deal.
EMail me if you want to see the "deals" in Clarendon 1021 across the street.
Actually I'd like to hear from anybody that bought there and what price you have.

Mike said...

Hey Frank,

Do know if anyone has closed at the Phoenix? I heard the same regarding scheduling settlements but from last I heard, they don't even have their occupancy permit yet. Can they schedule settlements without the occupancy permit? I was looking there but they don't seem to be backing off on their pricing which seem inflated to me.

FRANK LL0SA Broker said...

Hey Mike,
I don't know anybody that has closed yet. I believe you are right about the occupancy agreement.

As for the "holding firm" let me tell you about a little trick of theirs. They want to make everything look peachy, so that the people under contract won't walk! So they keep the prices high and obviously get next to no sales.

Then AFTER people close, then watch for the liquidation sales!

I do know a few people that are renegotiating their Phoenix contract. DO NOT TRY AND DO THIS YOURSELF! There are some new laws that can help you save $50k, but you gotta pay a couple K to a lawyer to do it right. (many real estate lawyers have no idea about this new law). Email me if you want the name of a lawyer (I get no kickback) that has helped 20 people in Arlington and a couple in Phoenix